Art & Science of Complex Sales

Sales Trends and Strategies for 2025 | Mike Stokes

In today's episode of The Art & Science of Complex Sales, we're thrilled to welcome Mike Stokes the Founder of Indicator. With a strong connection to sales leaders in New Zealand and Australia, Mike will share insights from the 10th annual Mood of the Sales Leader Survey, offering practical advice and real-world examples to navigate economic shifts and technological advancements. Don't miss this opportunity to learn how to harness current trends to elevate your team's performance.

Mood of the Sales Leader Survey (1:40)

Indicator, led by CEO Mike Stokes, is a sales development firm that has spent the past decade facilitating sales leadership groups across New Zealand and Australia, gathering firsthand insights into market trends. This effort led to the Mood of the Sales Leader Survey, now in its 10th year, offering a comprehensive look at industry challenges. The 2024 survey revealed that last year was the toughest sales environment seen in years, with economic slowdowns, rising costs, and declining revenue growth impacting sales teams. One of the most striking insights was a dramatic shift in salesperson motivation—remuneration and incentives became a top priority due to stagnant salaries and rising living costs. As companies struggle to balance financial constraints with retention strategies, sales leaders must navigate an increasingly complex landscape to support and motivate their teams.

Reigniting Growth - The Future of Sales Development (15:28)

As 2025 begins, business confidence is gradually improving, with companies seeing a light at the end of the tunnel despite lingering economic challenges. While small and medium-sized businesses pulled back on training investments last year, they are now beginning to reinvest, driven by optimism and a need to prepare for future growth. Sales leaders are particularly focused on AI and technology, as well as coaching, yet many still underinvest in their own development. Despite AI adoption among salespeople rising significantly, overall company investment in sales technology remains slow. With growing confidence, businesses are shifting their attention back to refining their processes and structures to build momentum for the year ahead.

Technology in Sales (21:30)

AI and emerging technologies have created a technology confusion gap, where companies struggle to implement and optimize existing tools while trying to keep up with new advancements. Many businesses still underutilize foundational systems like CRM, missing valuable opportunities. The key, as Mike Stokes emphasizes, is to first define sales processes and objectives before layering on technology. While AI adoption is accelerating, companies risk chasing trends without strategic implementation. The real opportunity lies in using technology as an enabler—focusing on what truly adds value rather than being swept up in the hype.

Crafting Authentic Relationships in Sales | Brynne Tillman

Ever wondered how to navigate the declining efficacy of traditional methods in the sales world? Brynne Tillman, CEO of Social Sales Link shares her strategies, honed over 15 years of leveraging LinkedIn, to build authentic, relationship-driven networks. Her insights promise to reshape your perspective on digital selling by aligning advanced technology with genuine human interaction.

From Cold Calls to AI (3:43)

Sales professionals today face a major shift as traditional methods like cold calling and inbound referrals become less effective. Many struggle to secure the first conversation with prospects who no longer answer unknown calls. Brynne emphasizes LinkedIn and AI as key tools for overcoming this challenge—LinkedIn enables trust-based social selling, while AI helps create authentic, targeted messaging. Having once relied on strategic introductions rather than cold calls, she now teaches salespeople to adapt by leveraging these modern tools to build credibility, engage prospects, and start meaningful conversations.

Authentic Selling on LinkedIn (7:56)

Brynne emphasizes the importance of leveraging LinkedIn for trust-based relationship-building rather than transactional sales. She advocates for three key mindset shifts: detaching from a prospect’s monetary value and focusing on the value you bring, treating online interactions like real-life conversations, and slowing down outreach to build genuine connections. Instead of using a "connect and pitch" approach, sales professionals should engage prospects through meaningful conversations and relevant content, ultimately leading to stronger relationships and better sales outcomes.

Leveraging AI for Sales Conversations (18:08)

While AI promises speed and efficiency, Brynne highlights the challenge of maintaining authenticity and personalization in sales. Early AI tools were flawed—generating misleading content, citing competitors, and lacking a structured approach. To address this, her team built a platform that organizes prompts, tailors messaging to different clients, and enforces brand-specific guidelines. She introduces the CRISP+ model for effective AI prompts: Context, Role, Inspiration, Scope, Prohibitions, and the key addition—asking AI to clarify uncertainties before generating responses. This structured approach helps sales teams harness AI responsibly, ensuring consistency, compliance, and genuine engagement.

B2B Sales Strategies for 2025 and Beyond | Matt Green

In the fast-paced world of tech sales, staying ahead of the curve is crucial. As we step into 2025, sales strategies are being reshaped by shifting economic conditions, expanding buying committees, and the integration of new technologies. In the latest episode of our podcast, we dive deep into these changes with Matt Green, CRO and co-founder of Sales Assembly, to uncover the essential skills and strategies that sales professionals need to thrive in this evolving landscape.

Join us as we explore the transformation of sales tactics, where old meets new in dynamic ways. From creative cold call openers to the resurgence of physical outreach like gifting, businesses are finding innovative methods to rise above the digital noise. We emphasize the value of in-person interactions in moving sales forward and the importance of setting clear expectations for sales teams at events. Matt also shares the journey of co-founding Sales Assembly, filling a gap in resources for tech sales leaders. Experience how their platform has enabled sales teams to receive practical, applicable training from industry experts, setting a new standard in sales excellence.

 

(00:04:10) - Frontline Sales Skills and Trends 

This chapter brings listeners into the world of complex sales with insights from Matt Green, the Chief Revenue Officer and co-founder of Sales Assembly. We explore the critical skills that sales teams need today, focusing on multi-threading and storytelling as essential competencies in the evolving tech sales landscape. With buying committees growing and budgets tightening, the ability to navigate enterprise sales motions is more crucial than ever. Additionally, the importance of storytelling is highlighted, not just in sales but also in post-sales environments, as organizations reevaluate their customer success teams. Through Matt's experience and the knowledge shared among hundreds of CROs and VPs of sales in Sales Assembly's community, we uncover the trends and challenges shaping the future of B2B sales

 

(00:10:50) - Navigating Shifts in Sales Tactics

This chapter explores the evolution of cold call openings, highlighting how techniques have shifted from traditional permission-based openers to more varied and creative approaches. We discuss the effectiveness of different tactics, such as directly pitching or using humorous openers, and how companies are customizing their strategies to suit their needs. We also touch on the resurgence of physical outreach, like gifting, as a way to break through digital noise and make meaningful connections. Additionally, the importance of in-person interactions is emphasized, particularly in advancing the sales cycle and qualifying opportunities. Overall, this chapter sheds light on the blending of old and new methods in sales outreach to achieve better engagement and results.

 

(00:18:55) - Building Sales Community and Networking

This chapter focuses on the importance of setting clear expectations for sales teams at conferences and events to maximize engagement and networking opportunities. We highlight how simple guidelines can enhance the effectiveness of salespeople, moving beyond mere training. Additionally, we explore the origin story of Sales Assembly, founded by Matt and his partner Jeff, who identified a gap in community and training resources for sales leaders in the tech industry. The chapter shares insights into how Sales Assembly has grown over the past eight years by leveraging an ecosystem of B2B tech companies to provide relevant, live training sessions. We emphasize the value of bringing in experienced sales professionals to lead these sessions, ensuring that the content is both practical and directly applicable to the challenges faced by sales teams today.

Navigating MSP Growth | Ian Richardson

Join us for an insightful conversation with Ian Richardson, co-founder and CEO of Fox and Crow Group and MSPSalesProcess.com, as he explores the world of Managed Service Providers (MSPs) in 2025. With nearly 45,000 MSPs nationwide, Ian shares his expert advice on overcoming sales barriers and attracting top talent in the industry.

From transforming technical expertise into a solid sales strategy to driving customer-focused growth, Ian offers actionable insights to help MSP founders thrive in an ever-evolving and competitive market.

 

Challenges in the MSP Industry (3:04)

 

Ian discusses the challenges MSPs face with their sales pipeline, including the intangibility of IT services, customer churn, and the lack of outbound sales efforts. He explains that many MSPs struggle because they are founded by technical experts without formal business or sales training. This often leads to difficulties in hiring sales talent, a fear of phone outreach, and a lack of structured marketing campaigns. Additionally, the commoditization of IT services and the absence of differentiation make it harder for MSPs to stand out in a competitive market.

Sales Process and Differentiation in MSPs (15:35)

While MSPs excel at technical processes, they often struggle with adopting a structured sales process due to negative perceptions of sales. Ian Richardson highlights how the word "sales" can create resistance among MSP leaders, who tend to see themselves more as engineers than entrepreneurs.

He explains that smaller MSPs (below $2M in revenue) often avoid formal sales discussions, while more mature MSPs ($3M+ in revenue) begin recognizing and addressing gaps in lead generation, marketing, and messaging. Ian stresses that having a clear process is essential for scaling an MSP business, especially since fixed-fee agreements depend on operational efficiency.

With 45,000 MSPs in North America and only 8,000 surpassing $2M in revenue, Ian emphasizes that success comes from taking ownership of the sales process—whether explicitly labeled as "sales" or not.

Differentiation Strategies and Hiring Processes (22:38)

Ian underscores the importance of differentiation for MSPs, suggesting that specializing in specific industries, such as healthcare, can help MSPs leverage industry knowledge to build stronger client relationships. He also recommends flipping traditional service models, such as placing technicians onsite, to create a more personalized experience and reduce churn. Additionally, targeting underserved markets or clients that others overlook can provide a competitive edge.

Ultimately, Ian stresses that combining these differentiation strategies with a solid sales process, effective hiring practices, and outbound marketing is key to driving growth and long-term success.

 

Building Winning Sales Teams for the Future with Two Tall Guys

Do you know the key strategies that effective CEOs use to empower their sales teams for success? Join us with guests Sean O'Shaughnessey CEO of New Sales Expert and Kevin Lawson, President of Lighthouse Sales Advisors as we explore the victories and challenges facing sales teams as we head into 2025. In this episode, we highlight the essential actions leaders must take, such as defining ideal customer profiles and crafting compelling value propositions, to navigate the complexities of the sales funnel and build a winning team.

Data-Driven Sales Leadership for Growth (13:28)

This chapter focuses on the importance of data-driven decision-making for CEOs and their sales teams. We explore how understanding core data, such as call volume, customer life cycle, and attrition rates, can guide strategic decisions. By analyzing customer behavior and demographics, companies can refine their ideal customer profiles and improve sales and marketing strategies. Additionally, the chapter highlights the evolving nature of a CEO's dashboard, emphasizing that the key metrics should adapt annually to address the most pressing challenges. We also touch on the necessity for CEOs to anticipate external factors, such as geopolitical events, and to communicate effectively with their teams to maintain alignment and focus on resolving the current top priorities.

 

Driving Sales Team Improvement Through Coaching (24:01)

This chapter explores the importance of incremental improvement in sales teams and the power of coaching to achieve these gains. We discuss the value of gradually enhancing the performance of salespeople by focusing on skills development, rather than just pushing for more calls or deals. By emphasizing coaching and personal growth, sales leaders can transform C-level performers into C plus or B-level, and motivate B's to aim for A-level performance. Using sports analogies, we highlight how small improvements, like gaining an extra yard in football or an additional hit in baseball, can lead to significant successes. Additionally, we touch on the need for structured coaching plans, supported by resources available on our websites, to effectively assess and elevate team capabilities.

 

Sales Process and Coaching Strategies (29:16)

This chapter explores the importance of understanding the varied strengths within a sales team and how structuring a coaching plan around these can lead to improved sales performance. We discuss the significance of assessing product fit, probability, and ideal customer profile before classifying a lead, likening this to the crucial addition of salt in cooking. We highlight how small adjustments in key sales metrics—such as a 7% improvement in sales projects created, win rate, average deal size, and a reduction in sales cycle time—can potentially double revenue. Sean and Kevin emphasize focusing on customer success and establishing a repeatable sales process as essential strategies for a successful 2025. 

From Entry-Level to Industry Leader │ Andrew Barbuto

Ever wondered how a career in digital media sales can transition from an entry-level position to an industry-leading role? Meet Andrew Barbuto, a digital media sales expert and Author of "Top Sales Producer: How To Crush Your Sales Quota", who shares his intriguing journey from the trenches of budget management and report generation to becoming a top-performing sales producer. His initial hands-on experience as an account manager played a crucial role in understanding complex sales and educating clients, laying a robust foundation for his remarkable success.

Complexity of Sales in Digital Media (5:16)

In the digital media industry, sales are inherently complex, and this complexity is highlighted when comparing managed services sales with software sales. Managed services involve full-service campaign management, while software sales require onboarding, change management, and long-term client support. Mastering industry-specific knowledge, managing multiple stakeholders, and building lasting relationships are all key to addressing these challenges effectively. Moreover, staying engaged with clients post-sale is essential for maintaining trust and satisfaction, even after transitioning them to an onboarding team. This approach underscores the importance of adaptability and commitment in navigating the complexities of digital media sales.

Maintaining Balance (14:29)

Balancing an active sales career with the responsibility of writing a book to help others succeed presents significant challenges. Despite the demanding nature of his work, Andrew dedicates early mornings, late nights, and occasional all-nighters to refine his approach. Writing the book required him to step back and analyze his methods, transforming his practices into a clear, step-by-step process. This experience not only deepened his own understanding of sales but also provided a structured framework that others can adopt to achieve lasting success.

Setting Up for Success (23:31)

Setting up for success in sales involves several key components. First, selling a product that you truly believe in is essential, as it ensures long-term client satisfaction. Andrew also emphasizes the need for strong support, including a skilled team that manages day-to-day operations and resources that free up the salesperson’s time. Another crucial factor is company culture and support. Having the flexibility to work with clients in non-standard situations can make a significant difference. By focusing on customer-centric values and leveraging organizational support, Andrew demonstrates how the right environment can empower salespeople to thrive.

 

Future-Proofing Sales for 2025 │ Matt Ferguson

What if the secret to skyrocketing your sales success lies in refining your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) and optimizing your team structure? Join us as we sit down with Matt Ferguson, Founder of MDF Coaching and Consulting, who shares his invaluable insights on navigating the challenges of complex sales in today's fast-paced world. As 2024 wraps up, Matt highlights the importance of aligning the right people with the right roles, and how an overload of modern sales tools might be hindering rather than helping your process.

Targeting the Right Accounts (0:03)

Matt discusses key sales challenges as we move into 2025. He highlights the importance of aligning talent with tasks and avoiding the mistake of targeting the wrong accounts. A key issue is the lack of a well-defined Ideal Customer Profile (ICP), which leads to wasted time on irrelevant leads. Matt also addresses the paradox of sales tools, noting that more tools often complicate processes. He emphasizes the need to focus on quality over quantity when building sales lists, targeting ideal customers with clear, objective criteria to improve efficiency and conversion rates.

The Balance Between Prospecting and Closing (20:02)

Matt discusses the challenges of maintaining focus and consistency within sales teams. He emphasizes the importance of full-cycle reps who can handle both hunting for new business and closing deals. However, he warns that salespeople often lose their hunting drive once they start closing deals, leading to a decline in pipeline activity. Matt stresses the need for managers to stay engaged with high-performing reps and ensure they remain focused on the right tasks. He also highlights the value of celebrating both meetings booked and revenue closed, as both are essential for long-term success. He draws parallels between sales and sports, explaining that success in both requires discipline, practice, and consistent effort over time.

Mastering Consistency: The Key to Long-Term Sales Success (28:58)

Matt stresses the importance of consistency in sales for achieving long-term success. He highlights that success doesn’t come from drastic changes but from consistently taking small, positive actions every day. Whether it’s booking meetings or closing deals, defining what a successful day or week looks like helps sales reps stay focused. By stacking small wins week by week, sales reps can build momentum, leading to significant results over time.

Adaptive Strategies for Modern Sales Leaders │ Nicole Babel and David Mullins

Explore how personalized sales strategies and why the importance of leveraging individual strengths to engage effectively can help you with Nicole Babel and David Mullins from SalesStar. 

 

With decades of experience, Nicole and David offer invaluable strategies to help sales leaders and teams adapt to rapid changes, such as accelerated decision-making and niche market specialization. This conversation sheds light on the challenges of setting appropriate metrics and KPIs and the benefits of integrating a robust referral strategy to enhance lead generation and foster meaningful conversations in an increasingly noisy world.

 

Effective Sales Strategy Discussions (8:53)

This chapter focuses on the diverse strategies sales professionals can employ to effectively reach and engage their target audience. We explore the importance of identifying personal strengths and preferences, whether it's through networking, social media, or traditional methods like phone calls, and using those strengths to cultivate a community. The discussion highlights the challenge for sales leaders to set appropriate metrics and KPIs in a world where communication styles vary widely. Emphasis is placed on the need for personalized approaches to sales activities, ensuring that each team member leverages their unique skills and passions. The conversation also touches on the increasing difficulty of capturing attention in a noisy world, suggesting that while traditional methods may require more effort, integrating a strong referral strategy can significantly enhance lead generation. Examples include engaging with influential partners or centers of influence who can provide valuable referrals, ultimately moving relationships forward and achieving productive conversations.

 

Target Market Clarity and Messaging (15:58)

This chapter explores the significance of identifying and understanding the ideal client profile and target market in today’s noisy sales environment. We discuss the necessity of having clarity on the target market, the problems being solved for that market, and crafting a compelling message to capture attention. The conversation touches on the challenges salespeople face with the overwhelming amount of noise and the importance of niche marketing. We also emphasize the critical nature of targeting exercises and how they contribute to successful sales strategies. Additionally, we examine the common pushback from sales teams reluctant to turn down deals, stressing the need to focus on projects that align with a company’s strengths. Lastly, the chapter addresses the role of discipline and accountability in sales, questioning whether these traits are diminishing in today’s workforce or if this perception is a myth.

 

The Impact of Sales Leadership (22:01)

This chapter addresses the pivotal role of sales leaders in fostering team success and accountability. We explore how genuine care for a team's growth and understanding individual motivations can lead to a more effective and motivated sales force, regardless of generational differences. By discussing real-world experiences, such as insights from a Vistage presentation and interactions with sales leaders, we emphasize the importance of systems, processes, and coaching to empower sales teams. The conversation highlights that many sales leaders are well-intentioned but lack the framework and resources to coach their teams effectively. Providing these leaders with the right tools and guidance can transform a culture of simple directives into one of supportive leadership, ultimately enhancing team performance.